Blackout build up.

[blackoutsteve]

Nope. I'm still expecting to pull the crank and possibly go -0.010" on the mains.
We'll see. The #2 & #4 mains would like a linish IMO.

---------- Post added at 04:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

The suspected rear main is also good, but shows a slightly irregular wiping pattern.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5216/5rearmainmedium.jpg

Journal run-out is practically zero with the dial.. Crank does not appear bent or this journal out-of-round.. :)
The flex plate would also show any bend as exaggerated, but has just a 0.040" (1mm) lateral runout.. That's pretty straight for a flex.. :cool:

[Nev68]

Steve, wasn't the reason this check some type of noise after your Trans / tailshaft destruction?
If crank / journals are OK, is there any possibility of conrod bigend issues?

[blackoutsteve]

Yes, and it's the source of that noise which is what I am looking for..
All the rod bearings are just like they were when I checked them years ago, still with some mild "overlay fatigue (http://catalog.mahleclevite.com/bearing/)", which is not a concern until the next rebuild where I can switch to H Series or K Series (aka TriArmor) bearings as a correction.. Probably a K Series because the load pattern of my P Series is good and I'm assuming K Series are the same eccenticity, -but with the graphite coating.
Anyway. this engine has done heaps of revs and been flogged on the dyno since that check so they must be OK or they would have died by now..
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8937/3rodmedium.jpg

The crank has no bend, none of he rods are binding (they all slip the 0.025-0.030" side-to-side freely on their journals) and again, the bearing patterns would show any indications there too.

So, the bottom end is good, and so far all the cam and valve train is good too. Lash has opened just slightly, but the rollers lifter are not far off new, so perhaps they "give up" a few thou in the first few miles or could also just be a difference in cold lash settings which what I am thinking.

As for the crud in the filter.. It looks like "they" got me real good. :rolleyes:
..but more on that later ..if I'm game.. :p
Not a waste of time though.. There is still the noise and still several things to check.. :)

[69coupe]

Ready by Sunday ?

[blackoutsteve]

Oh yeah Pete, you and me will be racing..

[69coupe]

Racing to the canteen for lunch

[blackoutsteve]

Canteen for lunch??
That's it.. I'm out!:p

[68ls1]

Racing to the canteen for lunch

Hilly for the win :D

[blackoutsteve]

I never needed to pull the crank, but the #1 upper rod bearing had me a tad worried when I went in for a closer inspection.. I thought it may have been a slight bend in the connecting rod (not that I expected it to be the source of any noise I heard), but Ian at Cranky's (http://www.crankshaftrebuilders.com.au/) says Nah! -Nothing to worry about really.. ..and I know for a fact that that minuscule amount of missing babbit is not what's in the filter..
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9426/1upperrod2medium.jpg

However, his advice is to throw in a set of new H Series bearings to swap the P Series. Because the crank is steel and nitrited, which Hs are better suited, and I may as well because the engine is "open" and becuase the Ps have overlay-fatigue and slight wear.
So today, I grabbed a set of Hs and started checking, but I found I'm a 1/2 thou (0.0005") too tight using Plastigage.. I don't like to rely on that stuff, as micrometers are much more accurate, but with an otherwise assembled engine, what choice do I have?
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/173/1plastigageh00015medium.jpg

So tomorrow, I grab me a set of HXs which offer 0.001" additional clearance over standard, but just use the lowers, which will give me the 1/2 I need. That's the plan anyway. :p ;)

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ----------

I should also point out in this pic from before, -and also according to Ian at Cranky's, is this marking on the rear main bearing is very likely to be a small amount of flex from what the tailshaft did when it broke and busted the transmission.
That top layer of babbit material is about 0.0005" thick and it's just marked it. :)
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5216/5rearmainmedium.jpg

[BIG 63]

Steve , sorry to here about the ""Incedent"" with the driveline and engine.
Just a thought , I presume you are running the rear clearance Looser than the other 4 ? . The noise (hopefully not) isnt a piston skirt cracked ?. Not easy to check unless a complete tear down. The motor has been well used ! , how it should be ! so hopefully its nothing to serious. Not sure on what pistons you are using but the forgies , run looser and can crack with over reving until warm.I busted a 454 a while ago (10 years of abuse) it actually stopped , once I cooled it down and restarted it sounded like a rod bearing (faint knock),or even a lifter failure , it had good oil pressure ,,on tear down 2 rod bearing were gone (melted and missing) piston had hit crank and busted , and bent the crank 018 from end to end ! At least yours still looks good so hopefully minor problem. Good luck Cheers Andy

[blackoutsteve]

Thanks Andy.. The pistons are forged Ross Pistons with ~0.0041-43" clearance and are a pretty strong design. Still, I've had a good close look up in the crankcase for a cracked skirt/s (and anything else) and all appears good. Bores are nice. Cross hatching is still there too.
The rear main runs looser at 0.0038" which is more that I'd like but typical.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/761/piston001xc8.jpg

[J.J.]

some of your posts are like reading another language. you certainly seem to know your stuff. hope all goes well with the engine

[blackoutsteve]

Thanks Josh.. I'm getting a little better at this for all the wrong reasons.. :p
There is plenty of reading out there.. That pretty much where all of my info comes from. :)

[1956SedanDelivery]

Not that it matters so much now, but a nice piece showed today a little earlier than expected..
My 3.5", 4130 CroMo driveshaft from Mark Williams. :cool]
Nice tailshaft Steve cant buy better than Mark Williams.
I have all Mark Williams parts in my 56 Sedan.
I had a full ChroMoly Housing and 40 spline floaters in my 57 Race car when I had it. Easily $20,000.00 worth of diff but virtually unbrakeable.


Also wouldnt that bronze colour in the filter be off the dizzy gear or off a cam gear shim or both. Personally I dont use a bronze shim at the cam I always use a torrington bearing even though some dont like this Ive never had a problem with one but I do change them everytime the engine is apart enough to get at it.

[blackoutsteve]

The gold in the filter isn't copper from a bearing or bronze from the timing chain bushing or dizzy gear (I use a cast anyway).

He's the killer.
Well, I still heard a noise that led to the engine "extraction", which, in a way I'm happy about doing because I've got piece of mind about the bottom end. New rod bearings, mains are still good.. I'll put that better oil pick up on the pump and double check a few other things.. Maybe the noise was elsewhere and I'm still to get to that.
Anyway, I'm quite confident that the bottom end was and still is good to go.

So, the gold color in the filter is from something in this picture (that is no longer there!).. :o :D
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/8503/assembly0538ds.jpg

[67SS502]

So, the gold color in the filter is from something in this picture (that is no longer there!).. :o :D


LOOKING LOOKING

it is like a "where is wally page"

[1956SedanDelivery]

Ah the gold off the springs. Gotcha.

[blackoutsteve]

Some of the white still is, but not one spec of the gold is still on those springs. ..and because it's completely gone, I completely forgot it was there when I checked under the valve covers and then checked the oil filter.
Maybe it's just me, but I think it's so f*cking stupid that that company, a maker of probably the best springs available, decide to not only use a paint that flakes off so easily, but to use a color that will obviously end up in a filter looking so convincingly like a something else. :rolleyes:

[guffer]

Thats Gold jerry :p

[blackoutsteve]

Swapping the rod bearings has taken a bit longer than expected.
Strangely, the thickness of the existing Clevite P Series standard(?) (0.000") bearing shells were measuring closer to the 0.063" mark than the specifed 0.062" in the catalog, -making for a full thou less clearance than what they were expected to. It was all accounted for during the original machining and assembly as clearances were all around ~0.0025", but it did make it confusing when 0.000" replacement H series were about a thou lose.
Then, to make things even more time consuming and confusing, the ACL Flexigage (aka Plastgage) was giving inconsistant and incorrect readings which was heading me in the 0.001" of additional clearance direction. :rolleyes:

Here's a brief and some insight for anyone not that familiar with this stuff, but would like to know..
I'm no expert and I'm still learing too, but I've done it a few times now. :)

Flexigage is a wax strip that is pretty good for many clearance checking applications. Cut off the length required.
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7919/enginerebuild2012052med.jpg

The length of the Flexigage wax strip is placed on the journal where the rod cap will be placed..
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6638/enginerebuild2012054med.jpg

For connecting rods, it's important NOT to allow the rod cap to pull up the piston/rod as the bolts are tightened. That will give you a false reading, so I use a large screw driver to seat the upper bearing shell against the journal.
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/4164/enginerebuild2012055med.jpg

A feeler gauge can be placed between the rods or counterweight cheek to help prevent rod movement and sideways c0cking when torquing.
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7537/enginerebuild2012056med.jpg

After the bolts have been torqued to spec, they are undone and the cap is removed to reveal the deformed Flexigage. Against the gauge on the packaging, the clearance here is indicated at ~0.002".
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/8863/enginerebuild2012058med.jpg

The problem with that however, is that the actual clearance was amost 0.005" after repeated tests. I can only assume that the rods were still c0cking against the Flexigage and giving false readings.

So to eliminate the Flexigage, the best way (always) is to always measure with micromters. Measure the installed bearings' diameter and subtract the measured journal's diameter.. The problem can be however, on a mostly assembled engine like mine, you can't always do that. Crank journals for example..
But at least the Flexigage is OK on crank journals, because the crank's weight in is the block and there is no sideways/twisting movement when torquing. That's where Flexigage works quite well as a good indicator.

Here I am mic-ing the fitted and torqued rod bearings with these inside telescoping gauges. You make a measurement, and then use an outside micrometer to measure the result.
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2572/enginerebuild2012060med.jpg

These telescoping gauges are good, but they can be a little awkward in tight places. ..and I also wonder if the 2nd measurement with the mic is another room for an additional tolerance. The bearing diameter shows 2.201" (with the 0.001" "HXN" bearings)
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7392/enginerebuild2012059med.jpg

Mic-ing the journal.. 2.196" and a 1/2 or 2.1965". Now you can see that 2.201" - 2.1965 = 0.0045" or (thanks to the Flexigage,) way too f*ucking much clearance! :eek: 0.001" per inch of diameter is what you need and it works on every engine from whipper-snippers to container ships. :)
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/2307/enginerebuild2012061med.jpg

This measurement shows a happy 0.0025" bearing clearance with the -0.001" bearings. :cool:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7601/enginerebuild2012074med.jpg

The bearing shells are another indication of what clearance you may have but certainly not the way to accurately determine it.
Here is one of the used P Series showing 0.0627". It's spec is 0.0620" :confused: (That's 0.3127" minus the 0.250" precision ball bearing needed to measure the inner radius of the shell.. My new Mitutoyo ball anvil mic hasn't arrived yet! :p) It's that additional thickness (the 0.0007") with this particular shell, which is why the existing 0.000" bearings are giving results of the new 0.001" undersized. If I had have just done a straight swap of the P 0.000" for the H 0.000", I would have ended up with an excessive 0.004" clearance on several of the rods.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9738/enginerebuild2012064med.jpg

New HN Series 0.000" bearing = 0.062". Spec is 0.0619". Close enough. :D (The N in HN = "Narrow" bearing shells (by 0.050") for large filleted crankshafts. All H bearing are now N as standard.)
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2405/enginerebuild2012065med.jpg

New HN1 -0.001" (undersize) bearing = 0.0624" and spec is 0.0624". (1/2 a thou per shell = 0.001". ;))
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/9293/enginerebuild2012066med.jpg

New HXN +0.001" (X = 1 thou extra clearance) showing about 0.0613" Spec is 0.0614".
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3057/enginerebuild2012067med.jpg

..and for what it's worth, a new 0.010" under P Series bearing showing it's additional ~0.005" per shell at ~0.0667 (0.062 + 0.005" = 0.067) It's 3 tenths of a thou off, and why it's important fit and measure bearings first, and then grind the cranks to suit.
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5526/enginerebuild2012068med.jpg

These new H rod bearings have uppers and lowers too. Not sure what the physical differences are, but the old Ps went upper and lower with all the same shell.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/183/enginerebuild2012050med.jpg

Got tired of using the telescoping T-handles and bought me this Mitutoyo 2-3" tubular inside micrometer today.. More accurate, more accessible, more better. ;)
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/8383/enginerebuild2012077med.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8581/enginerebuild2012078med.jpg

A little fiddly, but not as much as it looks. Measurements are much more repeatable, consistant and confident. :cool:
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/5513/enginerebuild2012080med.jpg

Now that the rod bearings are in and all the clearances are where they should be (0.0025-0.0030"), the rod bolts are torqued. I don't like to use a torque wrench when I can be more accurate and stretch them with a gauge. Preload is bang-on then. :cool:
These ARP rod bolts require 0.008" stretch which puts them at the correct torque regardless of any varying friction in the threads or under the nut, that would fudge the readings of any torque wrench. ARP moly lube is still used as a lubricant.
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9766/enginerebuild2012081lar.jpg

I use a 5/8" combination off-set ring spanner with the 11/16" end removed and slip over a ~7/8" steel tube with a mountain bike handlebar grip for leverage. (Have you ever attempted to go ~75ft/lbs with a 10" long spanner? It's hard. In fact it's 115lbs hard!. :o)
This dial indicator reads 0.0001" or in "ten-thousandths" of an inch. 0.010" or a 1/4 of a millimeter (0.254mm) is one entire revolution of the dial, making it's resolution simply awesome. :cool:
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3540/enginerebuild2012082lar.jpg

Starting loose at the 97 mark, I torque until the needle swings around 77, which is 0.0080" (8.0 thou) of bolt stretch. :)
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6672/enginerebuild2012083lar.jpg

[Frank351]

The Discovery Channel , with your host BlackoutSteve....

Great stuff !

Cheers,
Frank.

[L88racer]

Great report Steve on the investigation, glad eveything has worked out for the better.

[blackoutsteve]

(That's 0.3127" minus the 0.250" precision ball bearing needed to measure the inner radius of the shell.. My new Mitutoyo ball anvil mic hasn't arrived yet! :p)
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9738/enginerebuild2012064med.jpg

Hmmm, more new Mitutoyo.. :cool: (Ball anvils instead of the usual flat anvils for curved items. :) )
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7920/mitutoyo001medium.jpg

[camaro_1967rs]

Hmmm, more new Mitutoyo.. :cool: (Ball anvils instead of the usual flat anvils for curved items. :) )
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7920/mitutoyo001medium.jpg

How much was it Steve?

Pm if you like I have been looking for one of these for a while for work and play.

[blackoutsteve]

About $130. ;) The Mitutoyo (http://www.mitutoyo.com/) are Japanese and are about the best. Starret are good too, but be aware of other cheaper brands.
Part number is 115-253 (http://www.mitutoyo.com/TerminalMerchandisingGroup.aspx?group=1745). You'll be pushing to find one on the shelf. Colin at AA Industrial can get one for you. ;) He got my tube mic same day.
97629322

[blackoutsteve]

Obviously a good opportunity to give the head studs a retorque. I noticed nearly all went another ~15°.
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5681/enginerebuild2012084med.jpg

Lash the cam to 0.014"-cold. This will open to 0.020"-hot with alum heads. ;)
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5258/enginerebuild2012086med.jpg

Valve covers, intake and pan on.. Nearly ready to plonk back in. :)
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9679/enginerebuild2012089med.jpg

[blackoutsteve]

The kink in my long water pump bypass hose has always annoyed me, and looking at pics of engines with OE pumps and manifolds, I'm thinking it must be an aftermarket intake and/or water pump issue.
I'd like to know why the hose fittings between the pump and intake (both Edelbrock Victors) are so mis-aligned. They appear to be pretty much in the same locations to the OEs, but every replacement piece of correctly ribbed 3/4" bypass hose always kinks. :rolleyes:
Stock pump and manifold.. nice. :)
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/2712/lolagv.jpg

Am I the only one with this problem of the kinked bypass hose? :confused:
How is a 3/4" diameter hose expected to connect these two?
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/520/bypasshose004large.jpg

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4575/bypasshose005large.jpg

My local Bursons let me rummage through their stock of molded heater hoses and I found one for a Holden Astra, #CH1548 for only $8. :cool:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2886/bypasshose007medium.jpg

The only "problem" with the hose, is that it's a 5/8" id and the bypass is a 3/4". Not that a kinked 3/4" is going to out-flow a 5/8", it just means swapping the hose nipples for 5/8" ones. I bought these from GMH a while ago. Pretty sure HQ-Z and VC-K 6s and 8s used them. They are the same as the USGMs.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/167/bypasshose010medium.jpg

The "S" at the end is the bit that I want..
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2057/bypasshose008medium.jpg

Bingo! :D
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/462/bypasshose011large.jpg

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6972/bypasshose012large.jpg

[RAW454]

Nice find. No OEM hose clamps? :D

[blackoutsteve]

Of course there will be, but the pump isn't on permanantly yet.. ;)
Just swapped the ARP timing cover studs for OE bolts too.

[jaso]

Very neat!

[Russ]

That's a tidy adaption. Nice find.

[blackoutsteve]

Dave (AnyChevy), this is for you.. ;) I just couldn't help myself. :p :D
http://www.usmuscle.com.au/Forum/showthread.php?t=7874 (from post #12)

Yes, I know there are some of you on this forum who think I'm a wanker, but now, I guess it's official.. :D
Hmmm.. check out that "factory" overspray.. When touch ups get out of control, is this masking-tape laziness or the proof of a resto-wanker? You decide. :D
I just wanted to Chevy Orange the new timing cover bolts.. :o
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6930/enginerebuild2012098med.jpg

454 awaits.. Actually, I think the overspray looks good.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6082/enginerebuild2012103med.jpg

Ben not walking fast enough to get out of shot.. :p
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4259/enginerebuild2012105med.jpg

Me looking oh-so enthusiastic.. Well, I did start off happy and excited, but this drive-way-mechanic sh!t sucks arse!
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4020/enginerebuild2012108med.jpg

That was one of the hardest, pain-in-the-arse engine fittings Ben and I have ever done. (Thanks a heap Ben (67SS502).)
Anyway, it's in and now, the exhaust is bolted on and now it's hooking up umbilicals, bolting the accesories back on and pouring in some fluids.
Later. :rolleyes:

[Intruder]

Looking good Steve, can't wait to see it cruising round.:)

---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ----------

Dave (AnyChevy), this is for you.. ;) I just couldn't help myself. :p :D
http://www.usmuscle.com.au/Forum/showthread.php?t=7874 (from post #12)

Yes, I know there are some of you on this forum who think I'm a wanker, but now, I guess it's official.. :D
Hmmm.. check out that "factory" overspray.. When touch ups get out of control, is this masking-tape laziness or the proof of a resto-wanker? You decide. :D
I just wanted to Chevy Orange the new timing cover bolts.. :o
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6930/enginerebuild2012098med.jpg

454 awaits.. Actually, I think the overspray looks good.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6082/enginerebuild2012103med.jpg

Ben not walking fast enough to get out of shot.. :p
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4259/enginerebuild2012105med.jpg

Me looking oh-so enthusiastic.. Well, I did start off happy and excited, but this drive-way-mechanic sh!t sucks arse!
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4020/enginerebuild2012108med.jpg

That was one of the hardest, pain-in-the-arse engine fittings Ben and I have ever done. (Thanks a heap Ben (67SS502).)
Anyway, it's in and now, the exhaust is bolted on and now it's hooking up umbilicals, bolting the accesories back on and pouring in some fluids.
Later. :rolleyes:
Actually I think I know your problem,

BEN was telling me the other day that doing the left hand strut on his new daily was the worst job he has ever done on a car.
I then told him to come around and I will help BEN do the right side and after having done HUNDREDS of strut replacements over the years this turned out to be the toughest one I have ever done.
And now that you and BEN fitted the engine into your beast you say it was the hardest engine fit you have done.
For your own health and sanity, quickly send BEN home.:rolleyes:

[blackoutsteve]

That's an interesting theory and I bet you're off Ben's Xmas list now, but, nah.. A Ben with a hand can be worth two in a bush. :rolleyes: :D
It was difficult and I am grateful for his help. :cool:
It was a prick because we had to get the mounts over the frame stands, while at the same time, get the dowels into the transmission. That's down and back at the same time. :confused: ..all the with engine hanging on a too shallow an angle and with a slight tilt..
We got it by unbolting the 'Glide from the crossmember and allowing it to slide back about an inch, but we did manage to break my throttle lever pivot on the first attempt. Easy fix though, and it's much stronger now. ;)

[69coupe]

Steve, clean the overspray- looks crap

[GM NUT]

Yeah, lose the overspray dude...

[blackoutsteve]

This is Gold! :D

[anychevy]

Dave (AnyChevy), this is for you.. ;) I just couldn't help myself. :p :D
Yes, I know there are some of you on this forum who think I'm a wanker, but now, I guess it's official.. :D

You're no worse than me (well maybe a little) :rolleyes: but you're definately more patient and perhaps "slightly" more skilled :D
Looks great BTW :cool: I like the OEM overspray, the headers could use a little as well :p maybe not.

[blackoutsteve]

Alum heads, so I can't paint the headers. ..but then they are headers and were never production line, so I wouldn't paint them anyhow.

When I see some of those odd "factory" details, I like how it kinda makes you think about them and gives you some kind of insight as to how these cars were produced and put together..

[camaro_1967rs]

That's an interesting theory and I bet you're off Ben's Xmas list now, but, nah.. A Ben with a hand can be worth two in a bush. :rolleyes: :D
It was difficult and I am grateful for his help. :cool:
It was a prick because we had to get the mounts over the frame stands, while at the same time, get the dowels into the transmission. That's down and back at the same time. :confused: ..all the with engine hanging on a too shallow an angle and with a slight tilt..
We got it by unbolting the 'Glide from the crossmember and allowing it to slide back about an inch, but we did manage to break my throttle lever pivot on the first attempt. Easy fix though, and it's much stronger now. ;)

That's what I had to do when removing my sbc 406, I had big heads, and a th400.

Oh Steve if ben is there ask him if he wants the console and shifter please

[67SS502]

Actually I think I know your problem,

BEN was telling me the other day that doing the left hand strut on his new daily was the worst job he has ever done on a car.
I then told him to come around and I will help BEN do the right side and after having done HUNDREDS of strut replacements over the years this turned out to be the toughest one I have ever done.
And now that you and BEN fitted the engine into your beast you say it was the hardest engine fit you have done.
For your own health and sanity, quickly send BEN home.:rolleyes:

Kev you could be on to something there (thanks again Kev)

[anychevy]

.
When I see some of those odd "factory" details, I like how it kinda makes you think about them and gives you some kind of insight as to how these cars were produced and put together..
As you know, these cars were (more or less) thrown together on the assembly line and most are "over restored" and detailed to perfection.
Not that that's a bad thing, but they never left the factory this nice :rolleyes:
If you like reading, check out the autobiography of Lee Iacocca.
It's a great insight into the politics at Ford and also Chrysler's "quality control" (or lack of) and it explains why "good" Mopars are rare, expensive
and why the US government had to bail them out. It's very intersting stuff.

[jross]

Steve call ben,tell him to bring a paint scrapper.

[blackoutsteve]

It will look normal once it's all assembled.. No overspray is actually abnormal.. -it's just what you're not used to seeing on rebuilds.
The factory used vacuum formed paint masks over the engines which weren't a perfect fit and they "leaked" a little. They didn't have some guy spending a hour masking up each engine with tape. :)

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 PM ----------

I had a few extra "distributor plugs" made up for me to prevent dirt or anything else falling into the engine when the distributor is removed.
They are simply a flanged aluminium plug with grooves on one end so you can grip them with oily hands. The same diameters as the distributor and are held in place using the dizzy's the clamp. You should be able to achieve a water tight seal using a dizzy gasket if you want to, or maybe you could use an o-ring.
$10 each -posted.. I have 2. PM me. :)

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4396/distributorplugs008medi.jpg

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/949/distributorplugs010medi.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/261/distributorplugs011medi.jpg

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 PM ----------

Ben not walking fast enough to get out of shot.. :p
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4259/enginerebuild2012105med.jpg

I watched the movie Blow last night.. That's it!! The Tuna! :D
http://okfilm.com/images/cache/screen_image_261183.jpg?PHPSESSID=173e56f6b2331cdb a2d90cfa987b9b5d

[Frank351]

The Tuna !

haha !

Isn't that Randy from 'My Name is Earl' ?

Blow is a great movie BTW.

Cheers,
Frank.

[67SS502]

I watched the movie Blow last night.. That's it!! The Tuna! :D
http://okfilm.com/images/cache/screen_image_261183.jpg?PHPSESSID=173e56f6b2331cdb a2d90cfa987b9b5d

that looks like Mitch not me, i actually have a neck

[blackoutsteve]

Nice find. No OEM hose clamps? :D

There you go Deano.. ;) Hey! What the..? Geez..not more fxcking overspray? :eek: :D
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4326/waterpump005mediumz.jpg
Yes, the pump and bypass hose was in place when they painted them.. :p

[anychevy]

Yes, the pump and bypass hose was in place when they painted them..
Who supplied your tower clamps ? The last lot I bought from NPD were absolute junk :mad: Useless !

[blackoutsteve]

To be honest, they are not really that good compared to the more modern worm-drive clamps..
They do a great job sealing, but it's just that they are not so easily reuseable without a bit of messing around with them..
I bought mine through AMK (http://www.amkproducts.com/). They are cheap enough (smaller sizes are ~$2.50ea) to throw away the odd one from time to time that is beyond reuse. These are made in the USA.

http://www.amkproducts.com/bulk2.asp?code=7605&title=Clamps+%2D+Band
Look up the GM part numbers in your FAIM for the sizes you need. ;)

http://www.amkproducts.com/images5/o_z.jpg

[blackoutsteve]

As soon as I pulled the main and big-end caps, I kinda knew the engine came out for nothing.. :o The paint in the filter was just salt. :p
Well, I am happier now knowing the bottom end is still good, in fact, even better with the new rod bearings. :)

Just now, as I'm rotating the engine without plugs in it, in order to bolt up the converter to the flexplate, I notice a little resistance -only at a certain point of rotation.. Resistance I was never aware of before, because the plugs were installed and I had to overcome the compression. This engine cranks at 225psi, so it's pretty hard to turn.

I wonder if this is the source of the noise after all.. :confused:
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3066/bellhousing003medium.jpg

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7706/bellhousing005medium.jpg

The old Powerglide case has a less bulkier boss and offers a tad more clearance.. Probably a later case designed only for for 153 tooth flexplates and not the BB sized 168s. 'Glides haven't been behind BBCs since the '67 Corvette.
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3848/bellhousing007medium.jpg

I can't really see myself getting in there with a die grinder to make clearance, so I think the official proceedure will be to file clearance using a ring gear powered by a big-block. :p Talking maybe 0.020"/0.5mm..

[Frank351]

I think you are onto something there Steve ...

2nd pic looks like something definitely hitting.

I have one of those thin air-powered die grinders if you think you might be able to get it in there ... its like a pencil.

Cheers,
Frank.

[blackoutsteve]

Sounds like a neat tool Frank, and thanks for the offer, but I'll see how it goes.. :) Should only take a little bit of running time..

Getting there. ..back to it's usual OE clutter. :p :D
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1508/enginerebuild2012medium.jpg

[anychevy]

I bought mine through AMK (http://www.amkproducts.com/). They are cheap enough (smaller sizes are ~$2.50ea) to throw away the odd one from time to time that is beyond reuse. These are made in the USA.

http://www.amkproducts.com/bulk2.asp?code=7605&title=Clamps+%2D+Band
Look up the GM part numbers in your FAIM for the sizes you need. ;)

http://www.amkproducts.com/images5/o_z.jpg

Good to know, some of them just folded over when tightened :mad: they were just crap !

[blackoutsteve]

I may have had some of those crappy ones..
You do need to make sure that the bolt is standing up nice and straight, and they don't require a lot of torque. Only 12-18 inch pounds for the heater sizes and 14-20 in/lbs for the rad sizes. ;)
Another thing I sometines need to do is use a ~1/2" open ender to prevent the "tower" from twisting as I tighten..

[anychevy]

You do need to make sure that the bolt is standing up nice and straight, and they don't require a lot of torque. Another thing I sometines need to do is use a ~1/2" open ender to prevent the "tower" from twisting as I tighten..
Experienced all of the above :o looks like they were designed only to be used once :confused: I have a drawer full of F_cked tower clamps :mad:

[blackoutsteve]

All in and running. Sounds gooood (again). :D
The interference between the flexplate and bell housing is certainly a horrid noise and it was much louder and seemed a bit different this time, but got quieter as the engine warmed..
I'm reasonably confident that that is the source of the noise I originally heard. It sounds nothing like what it actually is though. Sure fooled me. :o
I'm wondering if it will be loud again when it's cold, or if it's still clearancing itself. :)

[chevL]

Happy that you have got it running again. Can't wait to meet it in the flesh one day.

[blackoutsteve]

The noise was back this morning so time to do something..
When the trans comes out of the car next time, I'll do this nice and neatly with a die grinder, but for now, it's a hack-job with a hacksaw blade.. :rolleyes:

10 minutes of pushing a blade back & forth..
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8629/bellhousing009medium.jpg

..equals enough clearance.
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6285/bellhousing012medium.jpg

Now, that was a lot faster and easier that pulling the fxcking engine!! :D :( :rolleyes:

[blackoutsteve]

Diff center comes out tomorrow..
It appears that the pinion got bent when the drive shaft let loose. :)
Comedy Gold Jerry! :D

[67SS502]

the carnage continue......

[rodent]

Diff center comes out tomorrow..
It appears that the pinion got bent when the drive shaft let loose. :)
Comedy Gold Jerry! :D

Unless I missed something.............................it's 12 bolt time poof :)

[blackoutsteve]

Yeah, but what good is a bent 9" to me? I still need to fix it.
I'll replace the R&P and worry about the 12Bolt later as originally planned.
Might set this one up myself. I have all the tools.

[WILD68]

Bent Pinion? Thats out there...

[blackoutsteve]

I felt a severe vibration as soon as I took it out today.
The old yoke has been belted by the shaft in 2-3 places.. It's no wonder the pinion bent.
Poor thing. :p

[WILD68]

I felt a severe vibration as soon as I took it out today.
The old yoke has been belted by the shaft in 2-3 places.. It's no wonder the pinion bent.
Poor thing. :p

ouch

[blackoutsteve]

If zero backlash, followed by excessive backlash every 180° of pinion rotation wasn't a good enough clue.. :D

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2343/bentpinion001large.jpg

[tuffss]

If zero backlash, followed by excessive backlash every 180° of pinion rotation wasn't a good enough clue.. :D

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2343/bentpinion001large.jpg

That's fairly severe Steve, what gears you going with, 4.11's or the 4.5's

[guffer]

If zero backlash, followed by excessive backlash every 180° of pinion rotation wasn't a good enough clue.. :D

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2343/bentpinion001large.jpg

Yep thats rooted ;)

[blackoutsteve]

That's fairly severe Steve, what gears you going with, 4.11's or the 4.5's

It looks so subtle in the pic.. The bend is easy to see without the straight-edge. When I got it out, I just took one look at it a said "Fxck!". :p

Really tempted to fit 4.3s (-they're what I think I'll ultimately be wanting), but 4.1s will be easier to sell when the 9" goes and they are still my "benchmark" for past 1/4 mile results. I wanna see what this car will do with minimal changes since last time. Technically, only the cam and converter has changed, plus a few extra pounds of A/C. So, a brand new set of Richmond 4.11s are going in now.
I don't have a press, I am short some pullers and the crash-course, so I've given it to Hugo. He built it before. :)

[Intruder]

:eek: Steve, when you screw something, you don't do it in half measures, I'm surprised you haven't had to change the harmonic balancer!

[blackoutsteve]

When those U-bolt let go, I'm telling you, it was violent..
When two shafts spinning in the same direction meet side by side at ~5500 rpm.. Do that math on that!

[S[_]SPECT]

When those U-bolt let go, I'm telling you, it was violent..
When two shafts spinning in the same direction meet side by side at ~5500 rpm.. Do that math on that!

Are we talking 1.82 or 1.76 for low in the 'glide?
Assuming you're talking 5500 rpm is when you shifted, and not post shift rpm..
The surface of the tailshaft will be doing ~43-45 kph at the trans end.. (add some for the loose end at the diff)
Else if you're talking post shift rpm.. roughly 80kph

[camaro_1967rs]

Yeah, but what good is a bent 9" to me? I still need to fix it.
I'll replace the R&P and worry about the 12Bolt later as originally planned.
Might set this one up myself. I have all the tools.

That's how I got permission to change to the current combo, this broke and that leads to this and that is the cause of this oil leak ;);):)

[blackoutsteve]

SPECT;86926']Are we talking 1.82 or 1.76 for low in the 'glide?
Assuming you're talking 5500 rpm is when you shifted, and not post shift rpm..
The surface of the tailshaft will be doing ~43-45 kph at the trans end.. (add some for the loose end at the diff)
Else if you're talking post shift rpm.. roughly 80kph

1.76 Birchy, but what I mean it the "surface speed" of the shaft and yoke.. :)
The U-bolts failed during the 1-2 shift which was at ~5500. I can only guess what the actual shaft rpm was but let's say 5500..
A 3.0" diameter shaft & yoke x pi (= 9.42) x 5500 (= 51810) / 60 = 863.5.
The outer diameters of the yoke and uni meeting while both are travelling at 863.5 inches per second is what I mean. A pretty decent impact. :)
The pinion is damn strong to have only bent as much as it did really.

(863.5 / 1.76 = 490 in/sec is still quite fast if at low gear speed.)

[S[_]SPECT]

(863.5 / 1.76 = 490 in/sec is still quite fast if at low gear speed.)

490 inch = 0.012 446 kilometer
*60 = per minute
*60 = per hour
44.8056 KPH..

And that is each side.. so they are coming together at 88KPH.. plus some additional speed as the diff end is loose and swinging around (ie add the lateral motion)
I knew what you meant. ;)

[GM NUT]

Jeez Steve, you know how to break stuff hey!

[blackoutsteve]

SPECT;86993']
I knew what you meant. ;)

Sorry, I thought you were working out vehicle.. I didn't mean to spell it out for you. :o :)

[blackoutsteve]

New ring and pinion fitted and now the pumpkin goes back home..

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8104/bentpinion008large.jpg

[blackoutsteve]

Added oil today, went for a spin, and all is good.. :)
You wouldn't think synthetic oil would be a good idea with a brand new ring & pinion, but believe it or not, 75W140 fully synthetic is actually Richmond Gear's recomendation.
Sin 80W140 Penrite will do nicely. :cool: This stuff is $60 for a 2.5 liter bottle..
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8435/bentpinionlarge.jpg

Still trying to sort the charging issue.. Test, test and retest everything and it's all really good.. So... WTF ? :confused:

[1968SS]

Good to hear all is ok, now drive and enjoy....

[lazy69]

What's wrong with the charging system?

[blackoutsteve]

Um.. it won't charge! :p :D
All wiring checked for continuity and correct to schematic..
Two new alternators, four new mech voltage regs, one used mech voltage reg, four electronic voltage regs.. All work, but none work.. :o
Varying results with either no charging at all or charging without voltage being regulated (no charge at idle, but progressively 17 volts at ~2K).

The only thing I have been able to find, which I'm not sure is a confirmed problem is.. ..and you need to know a little about external regs.. ..is that the Gen lamp terminal on the connector, when connected to the Field terminal, shows 12V. That's power from the Gen to the Field to excite the alternator..
However, when connected to the voltage reg, there is no 12V present in the field at all.. A voltage reg "at rest" only has 0.3 Ohms of resistance between these two terminals.
Why is 12V not making it's way to the alternator to excite or maintain charge?

[tuffss]

The only "problem" with the hose, is that it's a 5/8" id and the bypass is a 3/4". Not that a kinked 3/4" is going to out-flow a 5/8", it just means swapping the hose nipples for 5/8" ones. I bought these from GMH a while ago. Pretty sure HQ-Z and VC-K 6s and 8s used them. They are the same as the USGMs.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/167/bypasshose010medium.jpg

Hey Steve, do you have anymore of those Commodore hose nipples
Cheers Mick.

[camaro_1967rs]

It's going to be something simple, now that you have a genuine Chevrolet engine bay you are going to get genuine Chevrolet issues arrive, just like this one.

Check the loom plug at firewall, give it a clean with some alcohol.

Check the GEN globe (does it light up) that it is the right one if it's the wrong size or type of glass globe it will send the wrong line resistance signal so it wont close the curcit and won't charge.

The independent earth wire, check for correct electrical connection, also the engine earth is correct.

Have you checked the signal from the reg to the globe?

Have you soldered all your wiring fittings as well as crimped them?

Bypass the cucuit and connect to the battery maybe, that's what I used to do.

[lazy69]

How did you wire up the field circuit from the ignition switch to the field terminal on the reg. Did you use both a resistor & globe , what wattage globe did you use?
It should be either a resistor or globe to limit the field current not both. The alternator must be charging when you got 17 volts but not regulating.
I do know about voltage regs, internal & external but haven't had to set up & adjust an external reg for about 15 years.

[blackoutsteve]

No more Mick..
Have you tried Holden? Try Rarespares perhaps.. I can get them ex-USA easy if you need some.

Thanks Paul.. All of what you mentioned has been done, and most on more than one occasion. Most of the wiring has been crimped only as millions of cars were done the same. Continuity through each connection has been checked.

Graig, the field circuit is wired exactly the same as the wiring diagram in the FAIM. (UPC12-D1-D4)
The only thing I was unable to find was resistance wire from the ignition switch to the bulk-head connector. I ran a regular 18Ga and fitted two 22 Ohm ceramic resistors in series to give me 11 Ohms and enough heat sink ans the original single resistor got too hot.
10-15 Ohms is the spec on GM charging circuits.
The Gen globe is oe.. Forget the number but is the GE replacement number..

What I don't understand is, why there is 12V at the Gen circuit terminal when the connector is disconnected, but not when it's connected to the VR..

The charging system worked fine before hand with no changes..

In chapter 6Y of the Service Manual, all the tests have been carried out for testing the alternator and the wiring and it passes all of them. :confused:

[lazy69]

You wouldn't have found the resistor wire because if it wasn't fitted with an ampmeter it wouldn't have had one. As to the voltage on the reg you are reading the voltage after the load, once you connect that wire it is grounding the circuit which will light the globe & once charging you get voltage on both sides of the globe to turn it off

[blackoutsteve]

The resistance wire is standard on all models in all looms. Also, there is nothing about removing (or installing) a resistance wire when console gauges are fitted with the ampmeter.
Besides, the resistor that I fitted is easily disconnected for replacement and I have ran the car with and without it connected. No difference -because the gen lamp has always worked. That is why the resistance wire is there, a back-up incase the gen globe blows or is removed, the charging system will still operate..

Also, if the field wire is supposed to be grounded and the 12V disappears, then what excites the field in the alternator to get it charging?

I'm 100% positive (pardon the pun :p) that there is supposed to be ~12V going to the field from the gen circuit when the ignition is on.
I tested how much I had, and it showed 0.03V which is practically nothing. :confused:

From Mad Electrical's tech..
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/remotevoltagesensing.shtml
It is interesting to note that when the points were open in this system, current to the alternator field was never entirely disconnected. When the contact points were open, a small amount of current still flowed to the alternator field through resistors mounted at the underneath side of the regulator assembly. No doubt this action with the resistors smoothed out the operation and reduced erosion of the voltage limiter contact points. And the system also needed to maintain at least a small amount of alternator output to keep the “field relay” turned ON.

[lazy69]

What excites the field is the current not the voltage. If you remove the negative battery terminal & measure between the post & cable then it will show 12 volts although it is on the negative & this is the same , by having the resistor & globe or wrong wattage globe then you won't have the right field current & it won't excite. Once its charging it gets power from the alternator to the field coil of the reg to keep it charging.

[tuffss]

[QUOTE=blackoutsteve;87153]No more Mick..
Have you tried Holden? Try Rarespares perhaps.. I can get them ex-USA easy if you need some.

Does the P/no still happen to be on the boxes they came in.

[blackoutsteve]

I thought that if there was current (amps) then there had to be voltage. -Just like airflow and pressure in a pnuematic/hydraulic analogy.. The resistance of the globe will reduce that voltage somewhat, but the field should still see some voltage and there is nothing..
As for the globe, it's the correct GE replacement like the other seven. As for the amount of resistance. ~11 Ohms is also correct according to several sources, one being the 1969 Chevrolet Chassis Service Manual..
Like I said previously, this system already worked and charged normally at 14 Volts as it is before it went off for paint. The only changes have been several new regs, both mechanical and electronic and another new alternator in an effort to find the problem.. I guess it's safe to say that the problem is not with them.

---------- Post added at 05:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

Does the P/no still happen to be on the boxes they came in.

Wasn't the correct box in that pic Mick..

If no luck locally, try.. http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/13599/Camaro-Water-pump-fittings-SB-BB-67-68-69/

[RSZ28]

I thought that if there was current (amps) then there had to be voltage. -Just like airflow and pressure in a pnuematic/hydraulic analogy.. The resistance of the globe will reduce that voltage somewhat, but the field should still see some voltage and there is nothing..
As for the globe, it's the correct GE replacement like the other seven. As for the amount of resistance. ~11 Ohms is also correct according to several sources, one being the 1969 Chevrolet Chassis Service Manual..
Like I said previously, this system already worked and charged normally at 14 Volts as it is before it went off for paint. The only changes have been several new regs, both mechanical and electronic and another new alternator in an effort to find the problem.. I guess it's safe to say that the problem is not with them.[COLOR="Silver"]


If you put two 22 ohm resistors in series, you have 44 ohms and probably insufficient field current. You need to put them in parallel :). Hope this helps.

[blackoutsteve]

Parallel is what I meant.. Regardless of my inaccurate typos, the meter shows 11 Ohms. :p Thanks. :)

---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------

I just performed the Field Relay Check (Fig 10c) in chapter 6Y-12.
Checking for a faulty relay within the voltage reg.
(I assume that this test confirms that power is "arriving" at the alternator's field in order to excite it for charging..)
1. Connect a voltmeter in the system at the regulator #2 terminal to ground.
2. Operate engine 1500-2000rpm and observe voltmeter.
3. If voltmeter shows zero voltage, at reg, check circuit between #2 terminal and alternator.
4. If voltage at reg exceeds closing voltage spec and light remains on, regulator field relay is faulty.
http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/8564/voltageregtest004large.jpg

(Specification for closing voltage is 1.5-3.2 Volts.)
Results are: Voltage was ~2Volts. (1.5Krpm ~ 1.5V, 2Krpm ~2V, 3Krpm ~3V.) Pass ..but gen light remained on with no charging. Go figure.

For what it's worth...
Initial Field Excitation Field test (Fig 9c)
Step 1: Pass. Step 2: Pass. Step 3: Pass.
Test light illuminates in all three cases.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4149/voltageregtest001medium.jpg

[camaro_1967rs]

I thought that if there was current (amps) then there had to be voltage. -Just like airflow and pressure in a pnuematic/hydraulic analogy..

---------- Post added at 05:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------



That's a common area of confusion.

Current needs to be thought of as potential energy of the cucuit

If your gen has dropped a winding it could still generate 12vdc, but only enough to handle 10 amps, where normally it would be 12vdc and 100 amp potential.

The size of the wire core has an impact, if it's under rated it will provide resistance.

It's a bit like my communications stuff. I have an RF amplifier here capable of 1.5 kw output, which requires 500 vac. And draws over 100 amp easily, its single phase and dims the lights when i tx into a dummy load, with the increase in power more current is needed to drive the output, similar to torque curves in a car.

Similar danger as well but a boot from my amp will kill most people, the arc is referred to as the "GREEN GEENIE" I have been bitten once, the spikes from the tetrodes can reach upto a meter, I was showing my son something and there was a crack and big green and blue flash, damm thing bit my nose :-) its funny now.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 AM ----------

[QUOTE=blackoutsteve;87124]Um.. it won't charge! :p :D
All wiring checked for continuity and correct to schematic..
Two new alternators, four new mech voltage regs, one used mech voltage reg, four electronic voltage regs.. All work, but none work.. :o
Varying results with either no charging at all or charging without voltage being regulated (no charge at idle, but progressively 17 volts at ~2K).

Why is 12V not making it's way to the alternator to excite or maintain charge?


Your answer is here I believe:
My new MSD unit does not charge at idle, it charges 1500 rpm plus, iam informed that the newer generation of alternators behave differently.

Put the reg back in that gives you voltage at 1700 rpm, or put a smaller pulley, or Change the ratio of one your other pulleys so that the gen spins faster. The electrical technician working on my system says the new charging systems with high current are designed for LS1 type systems, so they don't charge at idle.

I have been here and done this took a week to sort out. My MSD blew its internal reg after 20 mins of operation, and then the replacement on had a higher rpm that it switched the charging on.

Maybe you if all the tests are saying the system is fine, then a change in approach is needed Steve for what it's worth.

[blackoutsteve]

The alternator isn't charging, Paul.
Every test I do, the rpm is brought up to ~2000rpm, with the multimeter showing ~12.5Volts -or what ever the "ambient" battery voltage happens to be, with the Gen light glowing brightly, -so pulley sizes are not the issue.
The system has charged before as it is, at idle with the existing pulley diameters.

Even with one of the other electronic regs that allowed the alt to charge, it wasn't regulating voltage and would see over 17V when the rpm was brought up. The Gen light would go out, so I know the gen light circuit works. ..and besides, I checked yet again last night. :)

Everytime I check a part of the system, I see that it's correct and has continuity.. So WTF? :confused:

[camaro_1967rs]

Have put a whole new alternator in that you know works?

I have one here as a back up if you want

You possibly have burnt out a winding or a short in the armature! That would show 12vdc but no charge

[blackoutsteve]

I have two new Delco "DN" (ext reg) alternators and they both work fine.
To prove it (to myself at least), I just then disconnect the regulator's Field wire and momentarilly "hot wired" it to the positive battery post and watched my meter go from ~12.5V to ~14V.
That was done at idle.

I then brought the revs up to ~1500-2000, momentarilly touched the pos post again and saw 16V..

Proves three things..
1. The alternator works when the field is energized.
2. The existing pulley ratios are fine for idle charging. -at least with the headlamps off. -no thermos on this car.
3. The alternator increases it's output based on rpm with the same field voltage. That might go without saying, but to a novice like me, it shows me at least that the alternator will do what it's supposed to in the right environment.

I also checked the Field terminal on the regulator to see voltage to the field (also only while the Field terminal was diconnected) and saw a steady ~4.7V that one would expect is energizing the alternator's field when it's all connected..
I plugged the Field wire back onto the reg's Field terminal and see only 0.25V, along with the battery's ~12.5V indicating that it's not charging.
Why do all the individual components appear to all check out OK without the system working? :confused: :o

---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

Forgot to mention, the above was with another brand new mechanical, USA-made voltage reg. -only just out of the box and installed as per instructions. -everything disconnected, mounted VR.
Then checked VR's ground to batt neg post (0.1 Ohms), then connected VR connector, then reconnected battery.

[camaro_1967rs]

Proves three things..
1. The alternator works when the field is energized.
2. The existing pulley ratios are fine

Why do all the individual components appear to all check out OK without the system working

Then checked VR's ground to batt neg post (0.1 Ohms), then connected VR connector, then reconnected battery.

Steve I still think it has something to do with the alternator, I had a very similar story with my vy adventra v8, it ended up that the windings were slowly burning out still charging but less and less every trip, until one day it seized in a ball of smoke. This ls1 alternator was working every time we tested it, yet overnight the battery would drain. It took 2 months for me to sort it.

Personally I would take your alternator out, set up a test bench similar to an auto elec ( if you don't want to take it to one), either crank operated much better with a 1 hp motor, put a pulley on it the same size as your water pump one, you will need a current meter, voltage meter, ohms and resistance, or all in on. Work on it from there. oh! Speed controller needed.

I used to use fence Planck, bolt the motor to it, the same with the alt, use a V belt and connect the two.

Perform all your tests from there, or take the alt to an elec and they would prob test it for you for nothing, only takes a couple of mins.

Your dilemma is that you need to know: is it mechanical or is it wiring once you know this your knowledge and confidence with sort it. Steve that's how I would approach it, you are running around in circles. Oh Steve does the 69 have a relay, fuse or safety switch, similar to the diode setup for the 67's headlight shutdown obscurely mounted that protects the alt

Let me know if there is anything I can help you with.

[blackoutsteve]

I have been considering making a complete "stand alone" system with a seperate battery, another reg and Gen light circuit etc., and using the engine to simply spin the alt for me.
But once again, I know when the alt gets power to the field, it works. What I did with the "hot wire" is a common way to test.
The stand-alone will simply show me it working and maybe teach me something, if not just prove it works.
I'm pretty much satisfied that the wiring on the car has an issue, but when I test everything several times and all continues to show up as good, what can it be?

These cars don't have any alternator protection fuses or relays.
There are three fuse wires. One 14Ga from the battery to the junction block, one 20Ga from the main splice to the voltage reg and one 14Ga from the horn relay bus-bar to the fuse panel power-in..
These fuse-wires are in good condition and have continuity.

[chevguy]

I have been considering making a complete "stand alone" system with a seperate battery, another reg and Gen light circuit etc., and using the engine to simply spin the alt for me.
But once again, I know when the alt gets power to the field, it works. What I did with the "hot wire" is a common way to test.
The stand-alone will simply show me it working and maybe teach me something, if not just prove it works.
I'm pretty much satisfied that the wiring on the car has an issue, but when I test everything several times and all continues to show up as good, what can it be?

These cars don't have any alternator protection fuses or relays.
There are three fuse wires. One 14Ga from the battery to the junction block, one 20Ga from the main splice to the voltage reg and one 14Ga from the horn relay bus-bar to the fuse panel power-in..
These fuse-wires are in good condition and have continuity.

Like the similiar problem I had with my oil gauge not working Steve, checking a wire for voltage or resistance doesn`t necessarily mean there`s not 1 strand left allowing the correct readings(you would figure the resistance would increase but sometimes it doesn`t),but not load. I`d put dollars to donuts you have a partially broken wire. Start running temporary wires to bypass the loom one at a time, you`ll find it.

[blackoutsteve]

I have often thought the same thing and began with that assumption originally.
What I did was run "external" wiring.. I ran a seperate power feed and bypassed the one in the loom, then a Field wire, a Stator wire ("R" terminal) and then a gen wire with a bulb and resistor in parallel..
It proved my loom had good connections because it made no change to the situation.
However, I might try it again with the new VR.. :)

[camaro_1967rs]

And Steve if you do make the test bench for the alternator, when you are not needing it for electrical work I Am sure you can use it for knitting, rolling the yarn into balls. :D

[blackoutsteve]

Ken, tonight I ran a seperate (temperary external) Field, Stator (R) and Gen lamp (w/resistor) wires using a heavy 14ga and no change.. Still no charging.. :confused:
Not that I expected it to. :rolleyes:
So much for driving it this Summer. Summer has gone and i'm still f-ing around with it. :o

[69coupe]

Steve, why bother with the external reg ? Use a internal job. I reckon your problem is in this area and the gen light

[guffer]

Steve, why bother with the external reg ? Use a internal job. I reckon your problem is in this area and the gen light

Blasphemy :eek:

[chevguy]

Ken, tonight I ran a seperate (temperary external) Field, Stator (R) and Gen lamp (w/resistor) wires using a heavy 14ga and no change.. Still no charging.. :confused:
Not that I expected it to. :rolleyes:
So much for driving it this Summer. Summer has gone and i'm still f-ing around with it. :o

Think of it this way bud, you are narrowing it down. Sorry for the dumb question but are you putting the meter across the battery terminals to get voltage readings or somewhere else? So this problem has only started since you put the motor back in?

[blackoutsteve]

Steve, why bother with the external reg ? Use a internal job. I reckon your problem is in this area and the gen light

No F-ing way! :D I wired it as external, and that, along with the 10s of millions of other GMs of the period that worked just fine, is how it will stay. I'm not giving up on it. ;)
Anyway, who's to say the internal reg will work if the external doesn't? ..because so far, the problem is not the alternator, the regulator or any of the wiring that link the two..
You could be right about the Gen light, but once again, so far it is wired correctly -(as per the GM schematic)..

Think of it this way bud, you are narrowing it down. Sorry for the dumb question but are you putting the meter across the battery terminals to get voltage readings or somewhere else? So this problem has only started since you put the motor back in?

I'm putting the meter across the battery (bought brand new a few months ago). I have also, at times measured it from the alt's positive post. Ambient voltage doesn't change at all, in fact it drops by ~1/2 a volt to run the fuel pump.
With little to no power demand when I'm running it, there should be plenty of power available to charge and show voltage at the battery from the alternator.. The gen light remains on too don't forget, which indicates that the alt is not providing a "balance of power" in the electrical system at all, regardless of indcated voltage on any meter.
The alternator came with a dyno sheet (I don't have it at hand right now to say exactly) that shows a comfortable surplus of power at engine idle speed which is in my case, about ~2500 alt rpm. ~7-8 amps for the fuel pump and a few more for the MSD is all that it consumes.
Before it went to get paint, it worked fine -that was after replacing a dodgy electronic reg. It idled at 14.2V
Since it's come back from paint, it hasn't charged, or it charged but would not regulate voltage (would get as high as 17V if I let it with the cheap and nasty electronic regs.).. Everything has been checked several times, the alternator has been replaced (I have a new spare now) along with at least 1/2 doz voltage regulators, both electronic and mechanical.
There is nothing left to check or replace and it's still not working. :confused:

[soccydoc]

No F-ing way! :D I wired it as external, and that, along with the 10s of millions of other GMs of the period that worked just fine, is how it will stay. I'm not giving up on it. ;)
Anyway, who's to say the internal reg will work if the external doesn't? ..because so far, the problem is not the alternator, the regulator or any of the wiring that link the two..
You could be right about the Gen light, but once again, so far it is wired correctly -(as per the GM schematic)..



I'm putting the meter across the battery (bought brand new a few months ago). I have also, at times measured it from the alt's positive post. Ambient voltage doesn't change at all, in fact it drops by ~1/2 a volt to run the fuel pump.
With little to no power demand when I'm running it, there should be plenty of power available to charge and show voltage at the battery from the alternator.. The gen light remains on too don't forget, which indicates that the alt is not providing a "balance of power" in the electrical system at all, regardless of indcated voltage on any meter.
The alternator came with a dyno sheet (I don't have it at hand right now to say exactly) that shows a comfortable surplus of power at engine idle speed which is in my case, about ~2500 alt rpm. ~7-8 amps for the fuel pump and a few more for the MSD is all that it consumes.
Before it went to get paint, it worked fine -that was after replacing a dodgy electronic reg. It idled at 14.2V
Since it's come back from paint, it hasn't charged, or it charged but would not regulate voltage (would get as high as 17V if I let it with the cheap and nasty electronic regs.).. Everything has been checked several times, the alternator has been replaced (I have a new spare now) along with at least 1/2 doz voltage regulators, both electronic and mechanical.
There is nothing left to check or replace and it's still not working. :confused:

hello, ive just joined the forum after a member chevl told me about it. im an auto elec that builds looms and does custom work on american and aussie muscle cars. im in cranbourne north and can come by and have a look for you and am pretty sure i can fix the problem. Let me know if you need some help, cheers

[67SS502]

Soc you are a legend, i have seen steve rip his hair out about this.

[blackoutsteve]

Yes. I no longer have hair but I do have beer! (and some money) :)
PM on it's way. ;)

[69coupe]

Forum works a treat !

[blackoutsteve]

Here's hoping. :)

Years ago, I had a pair of (real) traction bars made up with the correct length so that the rear tire's contact patch pushes against the car's CG- a push-point welded to the subframe connector. The whole point of 4-links and ladder bars is to push the tire's contact patch at the CG, but traction bars are much simpler, easier, cheaper and with no permanant modifications. They are completely bolt-on-off. :D
This well know drag car has OE leaves, traction bars and nothing else.. :cool:
http://www.competitionplus.com/2005_06/photos/news/bricklayer_02.jpg

Their quality is good, however, during the fabrication and install, I'm now sure the guy made an error when checking the pinion angle.
I was told that it was spot-on, like within a degree of the crank/output shaft's centerline.
Anyway, I decided to check it the other day in order to make any fine adustment and found that the pinion angle is a way-out 6 degrees! :eek: -which just happens to be what the 'Glide's pan angle is in relation to it's output shaft's centerline. I'm guessing the guy thought the pan was parallel, but as you can see, the pan is clearly not parallel. :(
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7436/mwdriveshaft024medium.jpg

With the car jacked up at the rear, both the pinion and pan share the same angle. :o
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/162/mwdriveshaft015large.jpg

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2162/mwdriveshaft018medium.jpg

My fix is to now get my Machine-Man-Mike to make a pair of wedge plates to bring the pinion up, almost to zero. 5 degrees should do it, which will still allow for a degree of deflection when transferring load.

More when the wedge plates are done. ;)

Also, I can't help but wonder if this huge pinion angle was a contributing factor in the U-bolt failure I recently had..

[GM064]

Steve,

6 degrees is certainly a long way off. Pinion angle is certainly an often misunderstood science. While it was a long way out, and was probably a contributing factor, me thinks there was something else wrong that caused the tailshaft/rearend failure :confused:.

Mind you, if you had a Chevelle or El Camino, you could get adjustable upper control arms and fine tune it to suit :D. I read a long time ago about a guy picking up 3 tenths with a cold air box and pinion adjustment, so it is critical to get it right.

Greg

[blackoutsteve]

The failure was certainly the undersized, and possibly fatigued U-bolts..
The angled wedges are an easy fix.. Much cheaper than having to buy adjustable control arms and buying wedges would cost ~$90 for a total of 6 degrees.
Like.. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-7025/?rtype=10
I'll have mine made in the exact angle I'm asking for, in one piece, for probably $20 plus tip. :)
That reminds me, I'll need some 5° wedged washers too. ;)

[guffer]

[QUOTE=blackoutsteve;87712]
I'll have mine made in the exact angle I'm asking for, for probably $20 plus tip. :)

Mike wont charge that much ;)

[camaro_1967rs]

The failure was certainly the undersized, and possibly fatigued U-bolts..
The angled wedges are an easy fix.. Much cheaper than having to buy adjustable control arms and buying wedges would cost ~$90 for a total of 6 degrees.
Like.. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-7025/?rtype=10
I'll have mine made in the exact angle I'm asking for, in one piece, for probably $20 plus tip. :)
That reminds me, I'll need some 5° wedged washers too. ;)

Hi Steve, I need to do the same, if you were able to stretch the friendship and ask for another set with washers for a 9 inch, you would make me happy.

On another topic Steve, brakes! What are you using? I am looking at the jl8's but the brackets are very pricy, or should I do the 2010 Camaro front brake conversion. I keep getting conflicting advice e.g 12" rotors will fitt 15" rims, I have 11" at the moment.

[blackoutsteve]

Tell me what angle you require Paul, and I have have them made. Price is unknown at the moment.
Or.. just go to SpeedPro and buy a pair of 2° wedges for $30. That would be easier if 2° is what you need.
The washers (I bought tonight from AA Industrial at $0.50 ea) are only available in 6°.
I might also be able to have them machined for you if the wedges are ~2° less than 6°, otherwise, also have them custom made to suit.
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/517/wedgewashers001medium.jpg

Another option for washers is ball & socket / concave-convex / cup & cone / male & female spherical washers.. So many different names. :p
You will need to check what angle they will do up to, and they are ~5/16" tall which might run you out of thread.
These guys are in Tullamarine and they could be pricey. Nice though. :cool: http://www.conceptfasteners.com.au/

http://www.conceptfasteners.com.au/Products/Machinery/images/9095_Lge.jpg

http://www.conceptfasteners.com.au/Products/Machinery/images/9096_Lge.jpg

Brakes?
I have oe J52 (1969) single piston Delcos with Ford drums on the rear -thanks to the 9". :rolleyes: The Delcos are a great caliper with good stopping power. Cheap too. Ford's drums are bigger than GM's making them too powerful so they are biased to the rear when using oe proportioning valve/s..
JL8s will be expensive. Are you talking on the front (J56 not J52!), on the rear, or both? All round, 4WD JL8 would cost you about $4K last time I looked.
J52 has 332.4 sq/in and the JL8 has 461.2. Huge improvement.
Will fit under 15" wheels. No idea about the later stuff, but I'll guess it won't. :)

[blackoutsteve]

Paul, I just realized that I (and you) won't need the wedge-washers if you're using the wedges to rotate the axle on the springs. That is, placing the wedges between the perches and the leaves. :p
Only if you're placing them between the springs and anchor plates, -to adjust some types of traction bars for example.

[camaro_1967rs]

The cars pinion angle needs to be checked again.

When I had the 9" made the car was std height, it's now 3" s lower, this is an area I am not good with.

If assuming the angle was set up correctly which I have no reason to doubt the engineer, would thi change by lowering?

[blackoutsteve]

I had ne reason to doubt the guy who did mine years ago, but an assumption he made that the pan was the same as the crank meant a f-up of 6 degrees! (I'm pretty sure that's what he did. Eitherway, he got it wrong.)

Simple.. http://www.markwilliams.com/driveshafttech.aspx

I wouldn't expect it to change by lowering.. It depends on if you re-arched your springs and they have caused the axle to rotate. Probably not if lowering blocks.

[GM NUT]

What sort of pinion amgle change will u get when it is under load?

[blackoutsteve]

On leaf springs with no traction bars.. maybe 3°.. :confused: Not sure. It will depend on the car, monoleaf, multileaf, horsepower, etc..
With my traction bars, they limit pinion angle when they meet the chassis. I have adjustment on them also.
I still expect a degree under load through deflection, which is why I am setting the pinion down 1°.

[RSZ28]

........the 2010 Camaro front brake conversion.

Where did you read about that conversion?

[camaro_1967rs]

I had ne reason to doubt the guy who did mine years ago, but an assumption he made that the pan was the same as the crank meant a f-up of 6 degrees! (I'm pretty sure that's what he did. Eitherway, he got it wrong.)

Simple.. http://www.markwilliams.com/driveshafttech.aspx

I wouldn't expect it to change by lowering.. It depends on if you re-arched your springs and they have caused the axle to rotate. Probably not if lowering blocks.

Don't use lowering blocks here:p steve.

Who would you recommend locally to check and align everything properly?

I expected as much the theory answered the question, but it's healthy to discuss.

---------- Post added at 12:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------

Where did you read about that conversion?

A lot of surfing one night, there are a lot c5 kits around and also brackets for the Camaro conversion From KORE3 Industries, they make a lot bracketry for a lot of different conversions.

[GM NUT]

On leaf springs with no traction bars.. maybe 3°.. :confused: Not sure. It will depend on the car, monoleaf, multileaf, horsepower, etc..
With my traction bars, they limit pinion angle when they meet the chassis. I have adjustment on them also.
I still expect a degree under load through deflection, which is why I am setting the pinion down 1°.

Would that be 1 deg further than so it pulls up to correct angle?

[Frank351]

Hey Steve.

word around the campfire is you solved your electrical problem.

Happy happy joy joy !

Please do tell ...

Cheers,
Frank.

[blackoutsteve]

Would that be 1 deg further than so it pulls up to correct angle?

Yes. ;)

Frank, that is kind of correct.. But the electrical problem wasn't solved by me. :p I was purely an assistant and spectator in Soc's diagnosis.
Thanks a f-ing heap Soc (soccydoc) for your time, efforts and expertise, and thanks Anthony (CHEVL) for making it happen. :)

Some have said it would be something simple. ..and it was.
The problem was the alternator was simply not grounding to the engine through any of it's mountings, even after it had been removed and refitted a dozen times during my troubleshooting. I had also checked the alt's ground several times with a meter and even last night it showed about 1/2 an Ohm to the batt's Neg post, but that's not good enough!
As soon as Soc ran an aligator clip from the engine's ground strap to the alt's gound post, it began charging.. :rolleyes:
So, after mouthing off at such a simple and embarrassing fix that tricked me on numerous occasions, I immediately made up a simple ground strap and fitted it.
I am still confused as to why 1/2 an Ohm isn't good enough and also why the many millions of GMs -none of which were ever fitted with alternator ground straps, all charge without a problem from new.
(No, I'm not talking about the battery's ground strap the upper alternator bracket, but the actual neg post on the rear of the Delco 10-12DN alts..)

Anyway, enough saving face :o ..it now works perfectly and the other good thing is that there is nothing at all wrong with my wiring. :D

[Intruder]

Good to hear it is all fixed Steve,:) do the engines normally run a block to chassis earth strap? What's next, drive time maybe?;)

[soccydoc]

Yes. ;)

Frank, that is kind of correct.. But the electrical problem wasn't solved by me. :p I was purely an assistant and spectator in Soc's diagnosis.
Thanks a f-ing heap Soc (soccydoc) for your time, efforts and expertise, and thanks Anthony (CHEVL) for making it happen. :)

Some have said it would be something simple. ..and it was.
The problem was the alternator was simply not grounding to the engine through any of it's mountings, even after it had been removed and refitted a dozen times during my troubleshooting. I had also checked the alt's ground several times with a meter and even last night it showed about 1/2 an Ohm to the batt's Neg post, but that's not good enough!
As soon as Soc ran an aligator clip from the engine's ground strap to the alt's gound post, it began charging.. :rolleyes:
So, after mouthing off at such a simple and embarrassing fix that tricked me on numerous occasions, I immediately made up a simple ground strap and fitted it.
I am still confused as to why 1/2 an Ohm isn't good enough and also why the many millions of GMs -none of which were ever fitted with alternator ground straps, all charge without a problem from new.
(No, I'm not talking about the battery's ground strap the upper alternator bracket, but the actual neg post on the rear of the Delco 10-12DN alts..)

Anyway, enough saving face :o ..it now works perfectly and the other good thing is that there is nothing at all wrong with my wiring. :D

no probs steve, anytime. Just happy to see another muscle car back on the road.........now to just finish mine..hahaha

[chevL]

Any of you guys have a coke?

no probs steve, anytime. Just happy to see another muscle car back on the road.........now to just finish mine..hahaha

[blackoutsteve]

no probs steve, anytime. Just happy to see another muscle car back on the road.........now to just finish mine..hahaha

Thanks Soc but it was short lived.. Already not charging again.
Ran a separate ground wire like you did, no change.. :mad:
Like before, no idea what to do now.. Everything is grounded -according to my meter. :confused:

[camaro_1967rs]

Thanks Soc but it was short lived.. Already not charging again.
Ran a separate ground wire like you did, no change.. :mad:
Like before, no idea what to do now.. Everything is grounded -according to my meter. :confused:

Steve this time it could be a reg, as I mentioned down this thread very important to earth every thing the alt is a bitch especially when all new paint is on everything. I have had the same thing happen to me on several occasions, I kept on getting comments from people around me " that car is going to catch fire if you don't fix the wiring". That's ok in the real world but that elec keeps quoting me 5 k for a good hidden wiring job.

I was thinking of you the other day, when I came across a factory looking wiring loom that removes the external regulator to internal, so you just change alt leave everything there. Other wise just cut splice and tape your own mod in.

[blackoutsteve]

Paul, the reg/s are fine and I am NOT going internal. :)
This is cheaper and easier than a loom and I have one. -still sealed in it's packet. -where it will stay.. ;)
http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/12832/Camaro-Voltage-regulator-ext-int-conv-67-68-69/

Besides, the problem is intermittent.. It began charging again..
Very difficult to fault-find because everything continues to show up as good.
Grounding components with aligator clips didn't help me this time.

[camaro_1967rs]

Paul, the reg/s are fine and I am NOT going internal. :)
This is cheaper and easier than a loom and I have one. -still sealed in it's packet. -where it will stay.. ;)
http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/12832/Camaro-Voltage-regulator-ext-int-conv-67-68-69/


Just sharing mate, the regs are solid state, intimittent operation due to earthing and heat are all possible, a bad earth can also blow electronics as the current uses the earth not the positive

[blackoutsteve]

I'm not using an electronic reg either. New mechanical. ;)
http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/21981/Camaro-Voltage-regulator-quality-USA-67-68-69/

[camaro_1967rs]

I'm not using an electronic reg either. New mechanical. ;)
http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/21981/Camaro-Voltage-regulator-quality-USA-67-68-69/

All good.

Did you check for mould growing inside, I binned mine due to two many question marks over corrosion points.

At least you have it all working.

Could do with a movie and a drive by

[soccydoc]

I'm not using an electronic reg either. New mechanical. ;)
http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/21981/Camaro-Voltage-regulator-quality-USA-67-68-69/

hey steve, could have a secondary fault we didnt pick up, i can swing by again

[blackoutsteve]

Thanks Soc.. It was nice to visit your place even though you weren't there :p, and Ben & I were treated to Anthony's generous hospitality so all is good.
Started the car initially and no charge. Got the meter out, checked continuity of several components, made no changes, or touched anything, restarted and began charging.. :confused:

The drive down to your (and Anthony's) place went really well. Longest drive the car has had so far and I think I'm competing with Cluxford in fuel consumption (I was going to say economy.). A little over 1/2 a tank for 50 miles (which does seem too much.. Are we 25 miles apart?).. I do know the speedo is accurate but I'll check it against my GPS next outing. ;)
Anyway, 170 to 220 on the odometer ate $50 of juice. ..or a dollar a mile. :o :D

[soccydoc]

Thanks Soc.. It was nice to visit your place even though you weren't there :p, and Ben & I were treated to Anthony's generous hospitality so all is good.
Started the car initially and no charge. Got the meter out, checked continuity of several components, made no changes, or touched anything, restarted and began charging.. :confused:

The drive down to your (and Anthony's) place went really well. Longest drive the car has had so far and I think I'm competing with Cluxford in fuel consumption (I was going to say economy.). A little over 1/2 a tank for 50 miles (which does seem too much.. Are we 25 miles apart?).. I do know the speedo is accurate but I'll check it against my GPS next outing. ;)
Anyway, 170 to 220 on the odometer ate $50 of juice. ..or a dollar a mile. :o :D thats a big block for you, hahaha. i need toby shares in bp to finance the fuel for the charger.

[blackoutsteve]

Thanks again Soc for your help tonight. I really appreciate your efforts.

Snapped this while Jay & me were waiting for you..
Gotta love evenings for immacualte-looking paint. ;)
Hopefully I'll have a chance to give it a polish so it looks like this all the time. It's hard to great paint when you remove and refit an engine.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8858/blackout003large.jpg

[guffer]

Did you find the secondary fault in the elec system causing the intermittent issue?

[gke60]

great shot steve, that is just a cool car...

[malc.]

Looks bloody gorgeous.:D:D

[chevguy]

Bin those 327 badges Steve:D Other than that the car looks pure porn.

[blackoutsteve]

So far Shane, we think we have found it.. May have been the white wire at the alt's stator (R) connector that appears to have been stressed breaking the wire within.
It's another thing that I did check earlier but wouldn't show because of the ground issue.
It still needs a little sorting and R&D to restore my confidence in it.. :)

[67SS502]

KEep the 327 badges look horn

[chevL]

I went to a friends house yesterday for dinner. What a shame I missed out. I would've impressed you this time talking a about my shevolet shevelle.

[blackoutsteve]

Shweet Anthony! :D

Don't worry, the emblems are going nowhere.. :)

How's the Big Apple, Ben?

[anychevy]

Don't worry, the emblems are going nowhere.. :)
Looks F_cking awesome Steve :cool: nice work, love the "cowl induction" but I reckon 396 emblems and an L78 air cleaner decal are the go :D
It would still be a sleeper

[67SS502]

Shweet Anthony! :D

Don't worry, the emblems are going nowhere.. :)

How's the Big Apple, Ben?

It is a must see, all types of nationality in one small island and a lot of lushes single woman ! Yummy

[tuffss]

Thanks again Soc for your help tonight. I really appreciate your efforts.

Snapped this while Jay & me were waiting for you..
Gotta love evenings for immacualte-looking paint. ;)
Hopefully I'll have a chance to give it a polish so it looks like this all the time. It's hard to great paint when you remove and refit an engine.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8858/blackout003large.jpg


Looks fantastic Steve, very tuff stance, are those plates Vic roads or custom jobs.
Cheers Mick.

[GM NUT]

Lookin good Steve.
Gotta be happy..........now
I agree, we do need to see a few vids!

[torino71martin]

Thanks again Soc for your help tonight. I really appreciate your efforts.

Snapped this while Jay & me were waiting for you..
Gotta love evenings for immacualte-looking paint. ;)
Hopefully I'll have a chance to give it a polish so it looks like this all the time. It's hard to great paint when you remove and refit an engine.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8858/blackout003large.jpg

That is a beautiful looking car ! I knew of a bloke in NZ that had a genuine 69COPO ,it was pretty much identical,visually to yours,Dog dish hubcaps etc,Although his was un-restored from new,so the paint was abit down.It always amazed me,at car shows it was displayed at,to see MOST people walk straight past it,to look at a Flashy looking Camaros with shiny wheels etc.Even alot of "car guys" Havent heard of the COPOs,YENKOS,NICKEYs,BALDWIN MOTION,etc:confused:

[69coupe]

Steve, can you tell me what front springs you are using. Type and part number ? I still have the SBC versions on mine and it sits slightly to low with a passenger

[blackoutsteve]

Thanks Guys..
Mick, just a heads up if you have personalized plates, if one ever gets stolen (and I have heard of it happening), your plates are then worthless as VR will never issue you one as a replacement and they will then force you to change the reg as you can't have just one plate. If you ever have one stolen, just shut up about it.. So anyway yes Mick, these are real. ;)

The only bling is just the factory trims. It's never a car that will be admired by the majority at any hotrod show.

Custom front Springs Pete. I had made the longest, softest spring that I could fit, in order to store as much energy as possible for weight transfer off the line. Soft springs will support much more weight over much more travel. Short, hard springs are useless at that..
I think they are ~170in/lbs and about 17" long.. But that's 12 year old memories. :p

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------

I clay-barred the car tonight and wondered where all the Chevy Orange overspray had come from.. :confused:
That was, until I looked up at the f-ing timber rafters and realized. :rolleyes: I was amazed at how much was on the paint.
Timber sucks and forever drops crap. My mum's garage is the same but worse with dry-rot.. My new garage is having steel trusses/Perlons.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/936/polish002large.jpg

Chamois dry really well and always looks great in the evening light, but it desperately needs a polish in daylight or under fluros.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1681/polish005large.jpg

[smote]

man... that is so F#cking nice!

that is the look i want my 67 firebird to have when its finished.

[tuffss]

[QUOTE=blackoutsteve;88370]Thanks Guys..
Mick, just a heads up if you have personalized plates, if one ever gets stolen (and I have heard of it happening), your plates are then worthless as VR will never issue you one as a replacement and they will then force you to change the reg as you can't have just one plate. If you ever have one stolen, just shut up about it.. So anyway yes Mick, these are real. ;)

Steve, I had plates stolen approx 4 yrs ago along with the 4wd I had, Vic roads issued me new plates along with a document that I had to sign to show cops each time they pull me over and with the camera recognition cars parked around the place no doubt my plates will set off alarm bells once noticed, so that is why i don't have SS.496 on the Camaro.
Cheers Mick.

[Frank351]

Steve, I know you want have any of it, but I reckon Side pipes would look tough on your car. By side pipes , I mean side exit pipes like these :

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxTCEiyfHR-ralxXRfoaOwzpR4LBX1gIEUZYSTdzEZyIoYekhg

Not the full side pipes a la AC Cobra, Corvette etc.

yeah, I know they are illegal.

Cheers,
Frank.

[blackoutsteve]

Didn't know that Mick.. Different to the outcome I was aware of.

Side pipes might look tough Frank, but you are correct. :D
I'd never get my 4 mufflers on a system that ends that short.
(Illegal exit point too BTW.)

[L88racer]

Looks magnificent the epitome of a factory tuff muscle car.

[chevL]

Your new garage will have steel trusses/Perlins not Purlons.
:)

[malc.]

I´ll be looking at it for awhile.:cool:


http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h216/malcolmallan/Blkout_Comp_Wall_II.jpg

[Russ]

man... that is so F#cking nice!

that is the look i want my 67 firebird to have when its finished.

Just send it down to Steve. With everything he's done & re-done he should be able to knock a replica over in a couple weeks. :D

[blackoutsteve]

Wow, now that's flattering Malc.. :)

No more cars Russ!! I'm out of the resto business.. Finally! :D

[jaywildone57]

It maybe time to update that old avatar pic

[malc.]

Wow, now that's flattering Malc.. :)

When you´ve seen a million 1st gen Camaros in red, black is a great change and your car is stunning in black, the paint is fantastic.

Now take it out to the outback and get some really good pics,
sunsets and roos......:D

[69coupe]

Hey ! red is good

[RSZ28]

Thanks Guys..

I think they are ~170in/lbs and about 17" long.. But that's 12 year old memories. :p

Chamois dry really well and always looks great in the evening light, but it desperately needs a polish in daylight or under fluros.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1681/polish005large.jpg

Gorgeous Steve!

How many prep hours went into the body?

17" long springs wow. Hard to get in?

Cheerz

[camaro_1967rs]

HEY STEVE
WHERE DID YOU GET THE MODELS FRM:p

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x102/bucketofbubbles_detailing/car8.jpg

Sorry could not resist.

Wow a brand new genuine Camaro, who can claim that as accurately as you can. :cool:

[Detailed]

I clay-barred the car tonight and wondered where all the Chevy Orange overspray had come from.. :confused:
That was, until I looked up at the f-ing timber rafters and realized. :rolleyes: I was amazed at how much was on the paint.
Timber sucks and forever drops crap. My mum's garage is the same but worse with dry-rot.. My new garage is having steel trusses/Perlons.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/936/polish002large.jpg

Chamois dry really well and always looks great in the evening light, but it desperately needs a polish in daylight or under fluros.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1681/polish005large.jpg

:cool:

[blackoutsteve]

Oh my, the man is back after his banning and tour of ACA.. :D

'Been thinking of you Mitch (although, not in the way you might be hoping), but regarding the polishing..
I gave the car a polish using 3Ms "Protect it" system, but no sanding.. #1 is a heavy cut/compound that was required in a few spots.. #2 was a polish with #1 a fine polish.
All done on a 6" foam pad using my right angle drill at the hands of an ametuer. (Me! ;))
Not perfect, but a huge improvement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5QieABhjl4

[blackoutsteve]

It is charging. Sometimes I need to "kick start" the alt's field to excite it, and there are still issues. Seems to be max charging all the time..

1 down, 1 to go.. :o
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/24/alternatormedium.jpg

[charger]

Wow, now that's flattering Malc.. :)

No more cars Russ!! I'm out of the resto business.. Finally! :D

Aww c'mon, once you get the big garage, I have a black car that you could continue your work on. After all, the Camaro is finished. What are you gunna do???;)

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------

On a more serious note, we need to get that car of yours out into some magnificent setting, late afternoon/early evening, so all the photographers amongst us can go nuts looking for that perfect shot!

[GM NUT]

It is charging. Sometimes I need to "kick start" the alt's field to excite it, and there are still issues. Seems to be max charging all the time..

1 down, 1 to go.. :o
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/24/alternatormedium.jpg

Wow that's fried!
Electricity can suck sometimes..
Hope you get it sorted soon, and when ya do i am sure you will let us know what the hell it is.
Russ

[blackoutsteve]

Hope you get it sorted soon, and when ya do i am sure you will let us know what the hell it is.
Russ

The fact that the electrical system wasn't working after it came home from the panel shop is no coincidence. Given GM's choice of bolt in this location, there is no way I can pass any blame onto anyone at all.

Extremely frustrated about this on-going problem and missing the one big show I really want to bring the car to, I went to see a(nother) auto-elec regarding this charging issue. (Soc, what happened to you? :confused:)

One of the first things this guy did (Rob of Extreme Batteries in Montrose), was to create a mild short in the field wire that created the slightest whisper of smoke from the hood latch area.
Immediately I removed this bolt that showed signs of arcing.. Bingo! -you Son of a F$^$@# &$#*( :mad:
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/152/shortcircuit001medium.jpg

Obviously this bolt (the correct GM panel bolt with a bloody point on it!!) has pierced the field wire in the loom that passes along the top of the support. There is no way I can place blame on anyone for this.
I can understand why continuity tests showed up as OK, because the wire is not broken. But what I don't understand is why it still failed to work when I bypassed this wire externally. I can only assume that there was perhaps a faulty voltage reg on the car at the time. This problem fooled me good. :rolleyes:
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5787/shortcircuit003medium.jpg

With the removal of this bolt, I started the car and it began charging immediately. What a relief. I hope this is the end of it :)

[zed28427]

I hope its sorted too steve...Let the cruising begin....:p:p:p:p

[68ls1]

Good news :)

Boy did you looked p!ssed off on Sunday

[Frank351]

Ah ... you MACGYVER !!!!!

sounds like your new auto-elec is a keeper !!!

Great news.

Cheers,
Frank.

[camaro_1967rs]

Steve now remove all wiring from the support panel and chech it, two areas to look out for shorts where important wiring is tracked: radiator support and glove box Chanel, over the years a lot of cars have been burnt to the ground due to screws or bolts going through wires. You would have sorted it if you had pulled the wiring. :)

[chevguy]

Misery loves company, I`m just glad someone else gets these mongrel problems:D Seriously though, great you found it Steve.

[blackoutsteve]

Knowing how to trouble-shoot is the key.. That's what found it in a matter of minutes. The auto elec didn't want my cashola but I convinced him to have it. I'm very grateful. :) (You too Soc.. where ever you are! ;))

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/472/shortcircuit005medium.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8383/shortcircuit006medium.jpg

Needless to say, the bolts have been replaced with non-pointers.. Something GM should have done on the drawing board.. :rolleyes: :p

[scalpa]

Hi Steve seen you cruising down canterbury rd this morning. Car looks tough and loud!! When you drove off from the lights at dorset rd it sounded awesome.

[tuffss]

Knowing how to trouble-shoot is the key.. That's what found it in a matter of minutes. The auto elec didn't want my cashola but I convinced him to have it. I'm very grateful. :) (You too Soc.. where ever you are! ;))

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/472/shortcircuit005medium.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8383/shortcircuit006medium.jpg

Needless to say, the bolts have been replaced with non-pointers.. Something GM should have done on the drawing board.. :rolleyes: :p

I know this head ****ed you Steve but we can all learn from this, well done good to know youv'e fixed it.
Cheers Mick.

[RAW454]

Given GM's choice of bolt in this location, there is no way I can pass any blame onto anyone at all. Ha - Can't blame anyone as you physically can't insult an OE factory part or design without breaking into a seizure?:p Well done on finally getting there. Bummer is a few days late, but at least you still have some warm-weather cruising left to try out that a/c :)

[1968SS]

Good news Steve, wish i had a bit of your luck finding my problem...

[blackoutsteve]

Thanks everyone.. :cool:
Deano, yes, I am amazed that this was overlooked by GM.. The loom retaining clip and hole is right next to the latch bolt. All parts are correct. How this didn't happen to heaps of cars, I'll never know. ..or maybe it did. There were plenty of recalls that we, today don't know about. Left engine mounts on several million cars is another.. Who remembers that?
I guess I'm fortunate in a way that the bolt didn't pierce the 10R.. That would have been rather serious. :(

[whitey27]

Great news Steve

Good to hear a smile in your thread!!

Happy cruising over Easter

Look forward to seeing it out and about.

Whitey;)

[L88racer]

Woohoo, go drive the wheels off it!

[BuickGSX455]

Woohoo, go drive the wheels off it!

Umm, no, thats what Deano did and we don't want another shop front video with a Camaro driving over its own front wheel. :p :eek: :D

Take it easy for a while...9 years of build time deserves a little extra care.
Not forever...

[GM NUT]

Glad to see you found it, gives the rest of us something to be aware of!
Russ

[RAW454]

Umm, no, thats what Deano did and we don't want another shop front video with a Camaro driving over its own front wheel. :p :eek: :D:o:o :rolleyes: :D

[Russ]

Take it easy for a while...9 years of build time deserves a little extra care.
Not forever...

9 years build time means the first weekend he has it out he should put between $500-$1000 of fuel through it. :D

[blackoutsteve]

For Howie! :cool:
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4642/blackout010large.jpg

[camaro_1967rs]

Can you adjust that front left bonnet height it's to high :):p

Looking good Steve.

Mate on the cruise to flemington how loud was my car? I used to be able to tel but with all this sound deadener it's relatively quiet. I am considering running another pair of mufflers or silencers at the end

[blackoutsteve]

Yep, the hood needs bending.. I'm not going to do it though.. A job for my panel dude.

[camaro_1967rs]

Yep, the hood needs bending.. I'm not going to do it though.. A job for my panel dude.

Lol remember about 2 years ago you said the same thing to me, i need to do that to my new hood.

[blackoutsteve]

The mistake with the loom clip and protruding hood latch bolt is mine.. :rolleyes:
Thanks to a look at Jimbo's Turd where I noticed a rearward pointing-offset clip on his loom, I decided to have a better (much closer) look at my FAIM.. UPC12-A5.
Well, there you go! Obviously, I missed that detail. Woops. :p :D
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5162/upc12a5002medium.jpg

One of these.
http://htsmall.rickscamaros.com/assets/rfg/images/size/265x265/sku/WHR-1.jpg

It's the small things that can make a big difference.. Sure stuffed me for a while.

[RAW454]

C'mon Steve - This thread needs the cherry on top of some more 'finally completed' (& already winning trophies) pix for those that may not peruse other threads ;)
eg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8219/chevynationals14apr1205.jpg

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8420/chevynationals14apr1204.jpg

[blackoutsteve]

Thanks Deano..
A "money shot" will happen soon enough.. :D
I'll have to start scouting for period-correct locations I think.

[blackoutsteve]

Fitting the very rare rear shoulder belts option.. :cool:

An excerp from the 1969 Fisher Body Manual, with the bolts and plates as supplied through HBC.
http://imageshack.us/a/img718/2070/rearshoulderbeltsmedium.jpg

I used a needle to locate the holes..
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6505/rearshoulderbelts004lar.jpg

..and then my trusty right-angle drill with a sharpened piece of metal tube over the needle..
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9803/rearshoulderbelts008med.jpg

..for a clean cut hole. ;) Very close to the edge.. :rolleyes: This parcel shelf is a bit cruddy from the pre-resto days and is to be replaced. Hopefully the new one is a better fit.
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7944/rearshoulderbelts009med.jpg

Screwed the anchor plates in place using the (same) two 5/16" bolts that the front shoulders use..
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/205/rearshoulderbelts016med.jpg

How they look from the rear (through a dirty screen :p) with the same plastic covers that the front shoulders have..
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/451/rearshoulderbelts015med.jpg

..and how they are on the inside.. The front shoulders (for 69) have latches that come over your shoulder, as where for some reason, the rear shoulders have the buckles. :)
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/8062/rearshoulderbelts010lar.jpg

[69SS]

The right angle drill and sharpened tube is a great idea Steve.

Nice work on your first Trophy by the way!

[GM NUT]

Yeah, nice tool Steve!
Way Aussie.

[blackoutsteve]

After some issues with vapor-locking in traffic, I have decided to fit a return line, but just from the pump back to the tank and not the full length of the fuel line.
Fuel flashes to vapor very easily at atmospheric, very rarely under pressure, but extremely easy in a vacuum, so It's my assumption that the vapor-locking I am experiencing is just between the tank and re-mounted pump where the fuel line is somewhat exposed to the exhaust heat in two places.
I am hoping the the "bleeding" of the fuel through the 1/4" line back to the tank will allow the fuel to keep moving and continue to replenish that short section with cool fuel.
We'll see. :)

So.. I ordered a 3/8"-1/4" return pick up from HBC (all Q-jet Camaros had return lines) and unpicked the 3/8" line to replace with 1/2".
They are made of stainless, so I bought a length of #16 wall 304 and copied the 3/8" section that I removed.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1734/fuelpickup004medium.jpg

[chevguy]

Hope it works for you Steve. I am running that bypass from the pump to the tank and was still having problems with vapor lock when I was stuck in traffic. I now have insulated the non return reg(mounted on the rt inner guard), fitted a insulating carb spacer and I got the headers done in that heat treated coating to lower the under bonnet ambients. Yet to get stuck in traffic again to test it though.

[70Nova]

Hey Steve, Your front and rear spoiler (if thats the right name for it) I have seen a 68-72 Nova with these on and was wondering what the correct name and or part numbers was so that I could look at adding these to my Nova eventually as they are not as far as I know a Nova piece at all. Cheers.

Sorry bud forget it I have found them. Can't believe it I looked last night but didn't look on ebay!

[blackoutsteve]

Hope it works for you Steve. I am running that bypass from the pump to the tank and was still having problems with vapor lock when I was stuck in traffic. I now have insulated the non return reg(mounted on the rt inner guard), fitted a insulating carb spacer and I got the headers done in that heat treated coating to lower the under bonnet ambients. Yet to get stuck in traffic again to test it though.

Me too. I used to have vapor lock issues when I used to have a mechanical pump, and percolation (boiling fuel in the bowls of the carb) with a dual-plane manifold. A phenolic spacer did help a lot..
As soon as I fitted an electric pump at the tank, the vapor lock disappeared and then the percolation when I swapped on a Victor Jnr which has an air-gap under the plenum.

Not much has changed this time except for the exhaust. It's close in two places over the axle. I thought the fire-sleeve would do the trick, but not so. I'm sure it's helping though.

[blackoutsteve]

I got my good mate Mike ("is five bucks OK?" :D) to machine a few of the same rivets for me out of copper (and some spares ;)) and a punch to flare them with..
These are where the power to the sender passes through the mounting flange.
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2537/fuelpickup007medium.jpg

Flared and then flat punched. Going nowhere! :cool:
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6919/fuelpickup012medium.jpg

Installed. ..and just like OE! :) The original rivet and insulators had to be removed or they would have melted from the brazing in of the new 1/2" line. ;)
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8656/fuelpickup010medium.jpg

I over-sized the OE filter sock to 1/2" and used JB Weld 2-part epoxy -which is petrol-proof, to hold it on the end of the line.
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8359/fuelpickup011medium.jpg

[GM NUT]

Nice work Steve.